I'm very excited about this!
Krista Cantrell is my favorite dog trainer by far!
She's just released some great step-by-step videos that show you how to eliminate 95% of all dog behavior issues by working with your dog's natural instincts.
I have a few of her books and love the way she teaches. Not to mention that her stuff really works.
Click on the video to watch. You'll be glad you did...
Hey everyone,
I had to share how excited I am to have started this training!!
Just a run down for people that don’t know about my dog….
My dog Quattro was becoming quite the handful. He was fine at home, he knows basic commands but once he was out on a walk he started displaying aggression – first at kids, than adults he didn’t know and finally unaltered males. I didn’t like it one bit.
I have always been absolutely in love with Schutzhund dogs – I think they are the end all of any trained dog lol…almost like the Rock Stars of dog training! (I will have to send out a shut out to Greek on this) So I contacted my local Schutzhund club and told the guy what my issues with Quattro were. Since he was kind of far from me and was busy getting ready for the upcoming season, he referred me to another trainer in my area who has trained in Schutzhund, trains police dogs, assistance dogs and does obedience.
My first session with him was last night. He showed me how to give a proper correction with my prong collar – I was doing more of a tug of war kind of thing when it should have been shorter and sharper. I thought my corrections were sharp, I was wrong!
He taught me where my dog should be in relation to me when in the "heel" position. So we walked around and he showed me when I should ask him to heel on a walk – Quattro picked up fast.
Then he brought out the "distraction" – his 10 year old retired Schutzhund Doberman. Amazing dog! They came out playing and as soon as he gave his heel command the dog was at his left side paying full attention to him and it was down to business! So he started playing with the dog in front of Quattro, had his dog bark, etc. – in the end, Quattro stayed at my side and never tried to go over to the other dog (he loves playing with other dogs if he doesn’t feel threatened by them lol). Even with the trainer started making kissing noises at Quattro to have him come over to him, after the first correction he never tried it again. If you knew my dog – you would have found it as amazing as I did! If anyone starts asking him to come over he will usually go.
He taught me that it was important to make sure the dog was getting as much "quiet praise" (as in not getting over excited when giving praise) as he was getting in corrections so that Quattro wouldn’t become stressed with his new form of training. I guess it’s hard for a dog who thought he was running to the show to finally be put in his place!
We were then talking about the 100% positive reinforcement debate – he said that yeah it may work for some dogs but dogs that tend to be more dominant like GSDs and Dobes etc. he doesn’t find it works for them. He was then telling me (actually this is the second time I have heard someone talk about it this week) that some positive reinforcement trainers are now saying that when your dog is displaying aggression – the best thing to do is to ignore it or let the dogs figure it out themselves….sorry, what? lol That seems a little risky/dangerous to me. He is currently training a GSD that came from a trainer with those kinds of views – apparently it is hard work untraining him lol.
So here’s my questions:
1. Anyone else use this form of Obedience training?
2. Can anyone that is training in 100% positive reinforcement tell me if this is how their trainers train? Also, can you explain how not giving the dog a correction to show the dog boundaries or what is not a desired behaviour – how do you 100% proof your dog? (I’m not trying to ruffle feathers – I’m REALLY interested in knowing how people training in this method can guarantee that their training is proofed)
Hopefully one day I will be able to join a Schutzhund club! Yesterday was our first session with our trainer and so only time will tell if he thinks Quattro would be able to do it!
As for clicker training – I wasn’t really talking about clicker training. I don’t really talk about it because, simply, I’m not that interested in it.
I’m sure it might work later down the road if I ever decided to use it but right now I don’t think it will work for my dog. Every dog is different, right?
I have looked into a few different types of training and I just don’t think clicker training is for me or my dog.
@Bindi – thanks for that. I hope you understand what I’m saying about clicker training. I don’t think that is something for my dog at this point. I think if your dog is proven in basic obedience and then clicker training is something you are interested in – then yeah, you could do it at that point. Will I do it? Maybe. Probably not.
Maybe you can’t 100% proof a dog – but I do know Quattro will be scored at the end of his training and his training has to be at least 96% proven before he can move on to any other levels.
@Bindi or rather "-" now. Why would you change your name and then your answer?
It’s not like you got a wack load of TDs lol. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and if it’s the opinion of someone not to use a certain method of training, that is theirs to have.
"2. Can anyone that is training in 100% positive reinforcement tell me if this is how their trainers train?"
There is no such thing! It is a physical impossibility.
To begin with the "Operant Conditioning" definition for positive is to "add something", so a kick in the butt is positive. The Operant Conditioning definition for reinforcement is to "cause or enhance" a desired behavior. So if the kick in the butt causes or enhances a desired behavior, it is in fact "positive reinforcement". Not at all what people have in mind and think the term means.
When you are cookie training, and you do not give the the dog it’s cookie because of an improper response, you "subtracted something", so it is a "negative". Since you did this to "reduce or prevent" an unwanted behavior it is also "punishment". So withholding the cookie is "negative punishment".
So the question has never been if you should reinforce or punish, because it is imposable to train a dog without doing both. The question is what reinforcements and what punishments are appropriate for the individual dog in a given circumstance.
edit
The use of a clicker (marking a behavior) is ONLY one portion of a training program, — again — there is NO SUCH THING as a clicker only method to train a dog . It is what else you do that will determine if use of the clicker is sucessful or not.
To the dog there is no difference between positive or negative punishment. Both reduce or prevent an undesireable behavior. Both can be done properly or abusivly. The simple use of the word "NO" is positive punishment.
edit
quote: "there are 2 clubs I’m aware of who use 100% positive methods "
That’s BS — what do they do — GIVE THE DOG A COOKIE WHEN IT DOES IT WRONG?????? Do they click their clicker and say "nice doggy" when it screws up??????
If they don’t, they are not using 100% positive methods, they are using both **negative** methods and **punishment** in one form or another instead!!!
—- AGAIN—- IT IS IMPOSSIBLE
The US Navy Marine Mammal training program states it this way; "we emphasize positive reinforcement". The key word is emphasize, which recognizes that they also use the other three portions of Operant Conditioning as well. (and you can’t spank a whale)
Yay for Quattro. I wish they had that kind of training here in the boonies. Murphy could use that also.
I need to ask around
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That’s awesome! So exciting!
I had a VERY similar experience. My humongous young lab was a wreck when I got him, so we found our local Sch, narcotics and assistance school and it was a godsend. We use more exhuberant praise, but this is just the general obedience class, so it’s not necessarily for dogs with a hightened level of excitement, like your quattro sounds like he is.
Isn’t it great? My lab practically sighed once we started, he was like "Finally, you get it!" Oh, and I’d spent 4 weeks in pos. only training. NADA ZIP ZILCH with 3 ‘experienced’ trainers. Wish I had that money back.
Oh, and did that Dobe, who’s been taking 10 years of corrections, seem "shut down," "miserable" or "afraid" to you? I guarantee his nub was wagging. All of the mals, dobes and labs at our school are happy, confident and awesome to watch work.
1. Yes!!
2. There was a lot of throwing treats on the ground and watching my dog look for them. I’m still not sure what that was supposed to be teaching. Also, fumbling with the leash, a dog who was way more interested in other dogs than my specialty treats from the holistic pet store (oh, so many mistakes), and a pocket full of treats was a nightmare. No wonder he didn’t learn anything, it was too damn confusing!
Oh, and the word "proof" didn’t crop up. Probably because they can’t do it.
Add: I Love to Help: There’s a woman in my obedience class who has an italian Greyhound- Teeny little female, very dainty and delicate. She’s uses an e-collar, I’m sure on a very low level of stim. There’s an elderly woman with a Papillion who also uses an e-collar. It’s awesome to see her among all the malinois and goldens. Both dogs are great, very obedient, happy and friendly. Here’s a model with a very small collar:
http://www.gundogsupply.com/tri-tronics-sport-junior-g3.html
Tritronics is a very reliable brand, also.
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I am about to start a training class with my puppy (first one is next week) and it is 100% positive-based.
We already know that while it will be fun, and a GREAT way to socialize our puppy because it’s a group setting, it’s not going to help us get our puppy fully trained. Before we got our puppy I wanted to be prepared, so I read 2 full books on training (one I found myself and one was given to us as a congratulations gift from our landlord – who loves animals). I didn’t know this at the time, but both were based on positive reinforcement only. I guess it’s the trend in training right now, so that’s what is in all the book stores.
They were really helpful books, in theory, and to teach our puppy to sit, stay, etc. they have been VERY helpful. But to train our puppy not to bite (not chew or mouth, he BITES us) and to come when called EVERYTIME, 100% positive does not work. Our puppy needs to know that ignoring the command, or continuing to bite after a firm "No bite" is given, that he has misbehaved so some correction it needed to get that message through.
It has been a real struggle for us because he is a 6 lb Papillion, so something like a prong collar is not possible, and since he is still very young, it’s unnecessary at this point (although I have no problem with using a prong collar in the right situation, with the right dog, with a properly trained owner and trainer to help). That being said, what form of correction CAN we use? I have been trying really hard to find advice on this, and I think the trend of 100% PR only is a disservice to first time pet owners. Because correction doesn’t mean "hit your dog", but the fact that you can’t find ONE book in the store teaching PROPER correction training, leaves struggling owners in a frustrating, and uneducated position.
Thanks to some posters on the DS, I have gotten some great advice on "low impact" corrections that are not cruel, but do teach the lesson required and then the correction does not have to be given again. The biting thing, which had been worrying me for weeks, was gone in one weekend using some soft corrections (on the advice of some knowledgeable pet owners and trainers from this board).
So as I said, I know from owning a dog and the living experience that 100% positive training doesn’t work. You can’t teach your dog what NOT to do, by ignoring him when he does it. Dogs don’t have that much logic to make those kinds of connections, especially more aggressive breeds with so much "nature" ruling their actions. There is nothing wrong with using positive reinforcement to train most commands. We’ve tried it, and it does work. And it also works well as a starting point for people that don’t know a lot, like first time owners. It’s easy to pick up a dog training book and do it with your dog, step-by-step. But no dog is an angel, and it needs to be shown not just what it SHOULD do (positive reinforcement) but what NOT to do (corrections).
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Sounds great so far. I’m not a trainer or anything but I worked with animals for over 4yrs and I have 2 dogs of my own. Both are very well behaved and very well trained, though one has dog aggerssion issues. And I don’t agree with that ‘ignore’ stuff either when it comes to that. Not telling your dog something is wrong is the same as if it happened and you reward… there’s not connection made in them that shows them they need to stop. When my dog gets aggressive with another dog I give a corrective tug on the leash and tell him "no" then turn him around and walk in a different direction. This tells him that his aggressive behavior makes him leave the dog instead of find more out about it, which is what he wants. He’s gotten alot better. I suggest for dog aggression to always keep your dog in motion. When they stop they have time to think and act too much on that aggressive behavior. When in motion their brains can’t fully focus on that one thing. I also when introducing my dog to new ones make sure they go on a little walk together for a few mins. The new dog in front for a min so mine can sniff the rear and then him in front so the other dog can sniff his rear. This has worked really great for me…. though I still can’t let him loose in a dog park, I’m able to have play-dates with my friends and their dogs =)
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All my GSD are trained exactly this way and I have found it to be very successful.This is the type of training I did with dogs when I was younger and trained for 15 yrs.My husband had to go into training with the 2nd GSD we got as the dog was only listening to me and he had a lot to learn.I could’nt help him as me being the wife the husband wanted no part of listening to me tell him how it’s done..I had to stay away from the class as the dog was looking to me for signals as I also taught my dogs hand signals also..So they did very well and he was happy to learn how much more fun it is when you have a very well trained dog that listens to your every command..Good for you and Quattro
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"2. Can anyone that is training in 100% positive reinforcement tell me if this is how their trainers train?"
There is no such thing! It is a physical impossibility.
To begin with the "Operant Conditioning" definition for positive is to "add something", so a kick in the butt is positive. The Operant Conditioning definition for reinforcement is to "cause or enhance" a desired behavior. So if the kick in the butt causes or enhances a desired behavior, it is in fact "positive reinforcement". Not at all what people have in mind and think the term means.
When you are cookie training, and you do not give the the dog it’s cookie because of an improper response, you "subtracted something", so it is a "negative". Since you did this to "reduce or prevent" an unwanted behavior it is also "punishment". So withholding the cookie is "negative punishment".
So the question has never been if you should reinforce or punish, because it is imposable to train a dog without doing both. The question is what reinforcements and what punishments are appropriate for the individual dog in a given circumstance.
edit
The use of a clicker (marking a behavior) is ONLY one portion of a training program, — again — there is NO SUCH THING as a clicker only method to train a dog . It is what else you do that will determine if use of the clicker is sucessful or not.
To the dog there is no difference between positive or negative punishment. Both reduce or prevent an undesireable behavior. Both can be done properly or abusivly. The simple use of the word "NO" is positive punishment.
edit
quote: "there are 2 clubs I’m aware of who use 100% positive methods "
That’s BS — what do they do — GIVE THE DOG A COOKIE WHEN IT DOES IT WRONG?????? Do they click their clicker and say "nice doggy" when it screws up??????
If they don’t, they are not using 100% positive methods, they are using both **negative** methods and **punishment** in one form or another instead!!!
—- AGAIN—- IT IS IMPOSSIBLE
The US Navy Marine Mammal training program states it this way; "we emphasize positive reinforcement". The key word is emphasize, which recognizes that they also use the other three portions of Operant Conditioning as well. (and you can’t spank a whale)
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What a great post… thanks.
Especially in view of my email to you regarding the prong collar and use of.
I also believe that you really cannot use 100% positive reinforcement although it is becoming ever more popular to the point that it is getting ridiculous.
However — I would say that once you are able to say "good boy" you turn the tables and can start working more positively. The dog does an about turn and works to please you and once you can get a rottie in that frame of mind it is a whole lot easier ……….. however…… you’ve got to get there first.
Best of luck with this and keep us posted if you can.
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I was an obedience trainer for many years and as I did positive reinforcement with treats(in the beginning only) in my classes it works on many dogs for the average dog owner. However there is no such thing as 100% positive reinforcement(or at least I can’t comprehend the idea) If all you do is treat and say good dog heaven help you and that dog, especially if it is a powerful breed that weighs more then you do.
Both my Rotts were Schutzhund trained and they are IMO the best trained dogs in the world<g>, they are also certified therapy dogs so that puts the rumor down that Shutzhund creates mean dogs. My Caucasian was trained with my own mixture of training he was extremely stubborn and I had to use treats at first just to get his attention, once I got attention then I could go forward with totally off lead training with him completely focused on me. However then came my beagle/basset that had many mistreatment issues and he has done the best just with positive reinforcement and firm but gentle corrections.
So my point is there is room for all forms of training and it completely depends on the dog and the level of intelligent of the owner, however no dog will ever succeed if they do not have some form of disipline, never by hitting. Just take your dog for a walk sometime, look at the other dogs and you can tell how they were trained if any.
BTW Congratulation to you and Quattro
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I did this training for years with my Rottweiler’s about 17 years ago. I have gone away from it over the years. However, I really loved it and I am going back to it. For some reason it is just an awesome feeling when you train this way and fun too. I have always struggled (in my mind) with the 100% positive enforcement. And it was not until just now I figured out why! I do not feel confident and secure with it and I believe a correction is just that, a correction! I feel that with the 100% positive reinforcement my dogs are slackers. (lol) It is defiantly not the same or even close. But I think I was so concerned about my Pit Bulls I should have had more confidence in myself that I knew better. Oh well live and learn, I am just glad it was only at my expense if you know what I mean.
You go Quattro!
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You’re right, everyone is entitled to their opinion on dog training. They should also be able to voice that opinion without being called cruel, abusive, a bunny hugger, a dumba** etc.
Of course we’re going to try and sway people to our way of training, and that’s perfectly fine, but I think we can do it without all the name calling and acting like abrasive jerks.
Why did I delete my answer and change my name? Because it got old, after the response posted below I said the hell with it, I’m done with YA. Agree or not, what was said here is uncalled for (and a violation of TOS by the way).
But here is my original answer:
"He was then telling me (actually this is the second time I have heard someone talk about it this week) that some positive reinforcement trainers are now saying that when your dog is displaying aggression – the best thing to do is to ignore it or let the dogs figure it out themselves….sorry, what? lol That seems a little risky/dangerous to me. "
I’ve never heard that one before! Yikes, sounds like a bite waiting to happen. I guess that’s the "positive trainers" that go way overboard. For most [mostly] R+ trainers (speaking for myself here) I would NOT ignore my dogs aggression. It doesn’t get better by itself, that’s just a fact. So sure, if you want an aggressive dog, go ahead and let the dog "figure it out" for himself.
As the owner of a (hopefully formerly) aggressive dog, I have to address this.
First, we do NOT ignore aggression. We work to modify it.
We do, however, tend to ignore or negatively punish aggressive behaviors. We do NOT positively punish them (or correct them).
I feel very strongly about this. Plenty of people who know Ash have guessed that he was punished for displaying aggressive behaviors (ie growling, snapping, that sort of thing). The result? I pulled a dog from the shelter that did not know HOW to growl or snap or warn and went straight for the bite.
As to punishing the bite, well, it’s hard to appropriately punish while you are running for the sink to keep from bleeding all over the floor. It’s hard to appropriately punish a bite if that bite brings you to your knees in pain.
Yes, I ignored the bites, I worked to desensitize the triggers, I did a lot of classical conditioning, I worked very hard to identify triggers and make them tolerable.
So it sounds to me like your trainer had no clue what he was talking about. If you are going to critique something, it is best to understand it.
We were then talking about the 100% positive reinforcement debate – he said that yeah it may work for some dogs but dogs that tend to be more dominant like GSDs and Dobes etc. he doesn’t find it works for them.
A) There is no such thing as 100% positive einforcement.
B) I work with GSD’s and Dobes (and mals and turvs and akitas and boxers and ect ect). Clicker training does indeed work for them. Lack of skillset should not be the criteria for making that sort of judgement.
1. Anyone else use this form of Obedience training?
Been there, done that, bought the picture at the end of the ride. I left it all behind a few years ago and now I clicker train. BTW, if tyou are interested, there ARE people clicker training for schutzhund and competing.
2. Can anyone that is training in 100% positive reinforcement tell me if this is how their trainers train? Also, can you explain how not giving the dog a correction to show the dog boundaries or what is not a desired behaviour – how do you 100% proof your dog? (I’m not trying to ruffle feathers – I’m REALLY interested in knowing how people training in this method can guarantee that their training is proofed)
See A. No one does 100% positive training. It is a myth that aversion based trainers try to foist off on the gullible.
I am a clicker trainer. I use positive reinforcement, negative punishment and extinction with an event marker to train and proof new behaviors.
You proof your dog by gradually increasing criteria.
BTW, there is no way for anyone to guarantee their dog is 100% proofed. You can only look at the history of a behavior, you can’t know what future behavior will be till it occurs.
References :
Thanks Asher
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Behavior_and_Training/thread/667410
*I’ve decided to hang around. But now I can’t figure out how put those symbols on my name before. It looks naked without them. I had that name for years, lol
Sound like you had a great session and learned a bit about giving proper corrections. Corrections need to be timed perfectly – if your late giving one, it’s useless!
and I can only answer #1 – if you’re asking if I’m using the type of OB training that you were shown, that would be mostly yes…BUT I do use a little more animation w/ my dogs when training. sometimes they need more animation, sometimes they don’t..but that’s the beauty of knowing your dog and how to either praise or correct them in a split second.
I wish you continued success with Quattro – when are you going to join the rest of us SchH nut’s and join a club?!?!?
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Bravo TJ.
Bindi? You and I disagree a lot..but this time I feel I’m going to have to say this in a way that there’s no question as to how I feel about that response. It’s the dumbest thing I have ever heard on Yahoo Answers. I’ve sifted through a lot of **** but this one baked, and then took the cake, and wiped it’s hind parts with it. So he thinks we should desensitize a dog that bites from biting by becoming a Schutzhund sleeve? How incredibly stupid can 1 person be? Well…no need to ask that that person proved it. You can DIE from a dog bite…those jaws are meant to KILL…a punctured artery and you’ll be dead before the ambulance gets there…and since you don’t know where a dog will bite you you’re…Jesus please help me continue to be PC I find it difficult not to say a word starting with an "r". You’re….just not….intelligent at all…not even a little bit. Doing as described in your response is stupid (again trying not to call that person stupid…as hard as it is).
If this idiotic idea…involved a muzzle perhaps I’d hear it out…at least no damage can be done in a muzzle unless the dog bites you in your exposed face while you put it on. Which is no biggie…it’ll help "desensitize" him.
Anyway to cut to the nitty gritty positive punishment is a must if you want a fully trained anything (Shamu). But beyond that, getting bitten repeatedly like a r…idiot…isn’t solving your problems. I could’ve muzzled and used a dominant dog collar on the little psycho and resolved the issue too. Only I wouldn’t have permenant scars, become allergic/conditioned to antibiotics after having 2 dozen courses for my severe dog bites, or potentially bled to death while letting a shelter mutt consume my femoral artery. Again…this is the most r…stu…idioti…the least intelligent thing I’ve ever read anywhere.
Aphrodite, you do as much as you can with positive reinforcement. But when it comes to aggression and blowing obedience commands you need to add corrections. Anybody who says they have a trained dog with R+ only is a liar. No dog is so hungry that it will obey commands for a treat when there are things it deems more interesting…a pile of steak vs your string cheese…be real! A tennis ball vs a "hold on wait I have a cookie in one of these bait bags wait for me to get it before you bolt into the road for the ball or perhaps I’ll scream down in hopes it startles you into compliance!"….you’re doing good Aphro don’t let psychos from the "correct ‘em with the e-collar until you smell burnt fur" or the "just let him kill poodles until he’s desensitized with treats" extremists sway you from keeping YOUR training fun and interactive with rewards and positived based training methods nor tell you a dog who clearly NEEDS a correction doesn’t need one.
-edit- Kim P…most people with a brain (people who don’t think allowing a dog to bite them is training) would muzzle a dog who they think would bite them. Also people who’re not simple minded enough to believe that you can train a dog with JUST treats use tools such as nylon chokers and dominant dogs collars. If a dog is going ape trying to bite me, I’ll calmly lift it’s front feet off the ground. A dog with no air can’t fight. Sounds mean huh? It might be just a little mean…but I don’t get bit and the dog realizes I’m the god of air and perhaps biting me isn’t so smart, tada, I don’t get bit anymore.
But sure, being a walking Schutzhund Sleeve is more PC…you stick with that! I’d love to send some of these guys some hard Rotties or GSDs or Mals and not the French/Schutzhund rejects they’re used to working with. I remember somebody saying Schutzhund trainers use marker training/clickers…this is true, but ALL good ones also use corrections…there are 2 clubs I’m aware of who use 100% positive methods and have never gone past the Regionals and have a higher fail ratio than I’ve ever seen…from any club.
Also you point out West German and DDR dogs which again proves you’ve never seen a real GSD…west german = show lines and "sporting" lines…friendly dogs who operate out of 100% prey drive and don’t have an aggressive bone in their body. DDR dogs = strong nerved dogs with 0 drive…there are maybe 3 lines of pure DDR dogs who have enough drive to work, the rest have been mixed because people ended up getting kitty cats instead of working dogs so they use the DDR blood for bone and color qualities and NOT working ability. REAL working dogs come from the Czech Republic, Slovakia, The Netherlands, Belgium, some decent breeders in Croatia, Serbia, Finland…Germany’s GSD’s are so bad, some districts use more Malinois than GSDs nowadays….
Also I have used a clicker, I prefer to call it marker training because I use my voice and not the clicker (I find it cumbersome and annoying). Secondly what have the trainers you mentioned done? The trainers I model my training after are Nationals competitors/winners in their respective dog sports. Chico Stanford, Michael Ellis, Carlos Rojas, Randy Rhodes, Bernhard Flinks, Helmut Raiser (who’s a jerk but a good dog trainer, probably the best in the World)…OH and Ivan Balabonov…can’t leave him out. Who are your "awesome" trainers (because you said they are) compared to these people, who are at the razor’s edge of training dogs to tolerances so small you probably wouldn’t even notice them? Exactly…but keep up about the "It’s all in the skills!" they possess the same skills, probably better than the people you mention, but they understand a dog will not be reliable if it doesn’t fear recourse. The same is true for all living beings who’re intelligent enough to understand that certain behaviors can induce discomfort and possess the brain power to intelligently avoid that situation in the future (dogs fall into this category). Nice read though, it was cute!
- TJ you know what I mean!
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"You can DIE from a dog bite…those jaws are meant to KILL…a punctured artery and you’ll be dead before the ambulance gets there…and since you don’t know where a dog will bite you you’re"
Ahhh…yup.
And even if you are using aversive techniques, all those things can happen. The fact is that consequences happen AFTER the event, not before. So whether you are using punishment or desensitization, you could still be bleeding to death while you do it.
The key is to manage the behavior to prevent the bite and desensitize to triggers so the dog is not prompted to bite again. It is not ignoring a bite but it is dealing with the bite without causing pain or fear to the dog.
I know, I work with aggressive dogs, including West German and DDR GSD’s.
"I think if your dog is proven in basic obedience and then clicker training is something you are interested in – then yeah, you could do it at that point."
You do realize that there are teams out there with their OTCH who have done only clicker training from the start? Dogs that have never been subjected to an instant of positive punishment? You can start from anywhere and train to whatever behavior you desire without the use of force.
Of course, again, some trainers simply do not have the skills to do so and must rely on causing dogs pain and discomfort in order to obtain compliance. How sad.
"No dog is so hungry that it will obey commands for a treat when there are things it deems more interesting…a pile of steak vs your string cheese…be real! A tennis ball vs a "hold on wait I have a cookie in one of these bait bags wait for me to get it before you bolt into the road for the ball or perhaps I’ll scream down in hopes it startles you into compliance!"…."
And THAT was obviously written by someone with no idea of how clicker training works. Again, ignorance and lack of skillset is no excuse for hurting your dog.
Aphrodite, don’t be fooled by uneducated, ill-informed people. Look up Morten Egtvedt and Cecilie Koeste, look up Laura VanArendonk Baugh, look up Steve White.
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Very exciting! Congratulations on your success.
1. Yes I do and yes you are right, yes it does help. I wonder if I was giving to my dog a treat for every little thing he did right he would behave so well…
2. I’m not so I can’t tell you, but they usually *ignore* (that’s what they call it) negative behaviour… Uh… Ignore?? How is that possible? When that dog mauls a kid will they still ignore it? How is the dog supposed to know he’s doing it wrong if they just *ignore* it? It’s just so silly.
And yes I agree very much with you… Hugs!
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To me, everything depends on the type of dog you’re training.
When I’m obedience training a regular puppy/dog, I use a mix of positive reinforcements and correction . If I’m working with a dominantly aggressive dog, I do more correcting than I do positive reinforcement. A fear aggressive dog, on the other hand, is a whole different training method.
Most people that I know who train in Schutzhund do use a mostly positive reinforcement technique for obedience training during puppyhood ONLY. Once the dog is mature, corrections are introduced. During puppyhood, however, there are not really any corrections, because you want to encourage drive and confidence. For example, a biting puppy gets a redirect to a toy, not a correction. To me, early schutzhund training is very counter intuitive to general training. Most general trainers will tell you never to let a dog win tug-o-war, but if you’re training for Sch, you want your dog to develop his drive, bite, and self confidence, so you would allow him to win.
I should note that I only Sch train puppies that seem to have proper drive, as well as relative stability. If a puppy showed signs of true aggression, I wouldn’t even consider continuing training until it reached maturity and then only if any aggression issues were completely resolved.
References :
Animal Behavioral Specialist/ veterinary technician